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What caused this damage?
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10137&t=41173		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  TAJ [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  What caused this damage?
I'm looking at an unusual bit of damage to the neck finish on a guitar I am working on for a buddy, and I can't figure out how it happened. I was not asked to repair this damage, I'm just curious how it could have occurred.

The finish on the neck where it curves into the headstock is damaged by the guitar hanger my friend used. The finish on the guitar looks like it's melted away in the spots where it touches the hanger. The finish is pushed away leaving bare wood showing on both sides. The hanger is a bog standard off-the-shelf brand with a rubber cushion where it touches the guitar neck. My buddy has half a dozen other rather expensive guitars hanging on identical hangers with no signs of any similar reactions. The guitars are all hanging in a climate controlled studio, so it's not literally melted. I'll try to take a photo and upload it here when I get home tonight.

The guitar is a US-made boutique item, though not super expensive ($800-ish). The finish on the neck is black with gloss clear coat. I can't tell what material it is. I have no idea how to tell Nitro from Polyurethane from Polyester from shellac.

My buddy suspects it was the result of hanging the guitar before the finish was properly cured. Sounds like a decent enough theory to me. What do you think?

..Todd
Author:  Rodger Knox [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
Some of those pads are made of some type of vinyl that will react with nitro lacquer, that would be my first guess.
Alcohol will soften shellac, acetone will soften nitro lacquer and shellac, you can test on an unexposed area like under the truss rod cover.
Author:  TAJ [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
I'm pretty confident that more than a few of his pricier guitars have Nitro finishes, with no reaction on these hangers, and I'm a bit doubtful that the rubber on the hanger has a vinyl component. I think the music industry would be screaming and yelling if these hangers reacted with Nitro, and I suspect lawsuits would be pervasive.

I'm also a bit doubtful that this guitar has Nitro on its neck. No effort was spent giving any other part of the guitar a retro feel or sound, so I have assumed the finish is polyurethane (but who really knows what the guitar builder was thinking at the time).

Does the curing theory sound plausible?

..Todd
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
It's pretty common these days for hangers and stands to have vinyl parts that mess with nitro finishes. Sad but true. I cover them with leather.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
Quote:
I think the music industry would be screaming and yelling if these hangers reacted with Nitro, and I suspect lawsuits would be pervasive.


Yeah, right.
You think guitar companies actually give a crap about guitar hangers?
Author:  TAJ [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
?? I didn't mention or imply guitar companies.

I think that any advanced collector whose $10,000+ Strats or Les Pauls (or whatever) got ruined by vinyl hangers would sue the appropriate hanger manufacturer, vendor, distributor, importer? I certainly would. I'd also scream and yell so loud the entire music industry (not necessarily the guitar industry) would be well aware of the danger. I'd make dang sure the major distributors knew which ones cause problems and might get them in [legal] trouble.

Maybe I'm unusual and guitar collectors would just accept it laying down. Or maybe it has happened and I just haven't heard about it.

..Todd
Author:  Chris Pile [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
You said MUSIC INDUSTRY.
That is makers and sellers - not users.
Author:  twick [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
Vinyl burn happens all the time. Some hangers are better than others but if the guitar was sprayed with any nitro, even nitro sealer, it can react and will ruin a guitar finish.
Author:  twick [ Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
Picture?
Author:  B. Howard [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
Read the fine print that came with your stand, there will be a disclaimer that it may not be safe for use with certain finishes. Even stands that I use that are fine with lacquer have this disclaimer.
Author:  John A [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
Quote:
I think the music industry would be screaming and yelling if these hangers reacted with Nitro, and I suspect lawsuits would be pervasive.


That is why they always include a disclaimer and warning about this when you buy a hanger in the package or a guitar stand.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 9:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
There are probably multiple disclaimers on the package. For example; small parts are a choking hazard, keep away from children, bag can cause suffocation, be sure to properly mount this hanger to avoid it falling off the wall and damaging the guitar, not responsible if guitar falls due to improper mounting, made in Taiwan but good luck buying one there, some parts may react with some finishes so check with your guitar manufacturer to see if your finish is compatible with this stand, don't stick the pointy parts in your eyes or injury can result, yes we know its tempting to use this as a floatations device but it doesn't float so cut it out already, coffee is hot so don't dump it in your crotch, always wear clean underwear, an apple a day keeps the doctor away, etc. we live in a very litigious society. They would have mentioned the finish issue on the package.
Author:  TAJ [ Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
Chris Pile wrote:
You said MUSIC INDUSTRY.
That is makers and sellers - not users.


No worries. Your definition works too, in the context of this forum, it's just not what I meant. I think if I asked anyone around me to name some entity in the "music industry", they'd name a musician (a "user" as you put it). But it doesn't matter.

Thanks for all the info folks. I guess the consensus is a vinyl/nitro reaction. I didn't know about the stand/hanger warnings. I guess, in retrospect, I've bought mine all used, without the hang tags. Not sure what my buddy's excuse is. :-)

..Todd
Author:  Z-MaxGuitars [ Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
Definitely sounds like the nitro burned when in contact with the synthetic hanger. Most unfortunate. I actually had this happen to 2 of my originals that were on display at a semi-local retailer. I assumed they knew better, well, I guess I should have known better than to assume.
Anyway, nitro is a wonderful finish but it does react adversely to synthetic materials, like the ribber found on many hangers and stands. I am in the habit of wrapping any "contact points" with a piece of cloth. I would rather give up a T-shirt than a guitar.
Author:  nyazzip [ Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
as a kid in the early 70s, i was always (mildly) amazed at the gooey messes that different plastics/vinyls/etc would make with each other when in contact for long periods of time. a main perpetrator seemed to be rubbery fishing worms; they seemed to melt into everything
Author:  TAJ [ Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
I think I will wrap all my guitar-touching stand parts (rubber, vinyl or otherwise) with hockey stick tape (cloth) just to be safe.

..Todd
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
TAJ wrote:
I think I will wrap all my guitar-touching stand parts (rubber, vinyl or otherwise) with hockey stick tape (cloth) just to be safe.

..Todd


More common in Canada than duct tape! laughing6-hehe

Alex
Author:  TAJ [ Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
You mean other countries use duct tape on their hockey sticks?? :lol:

I finally took a snapshot of the finish damage I was talking about (attached). Maybe I should have cleaned the fingerprints off the guitar and vacuumed the floor before I took the picture.

Attachment:
neck damage.jpg
Author:  Shaw [ Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: What caused this damage?
This occurred to a led Paul I had on a wall hanger I bought years ago. It was coated with a rubber. I believe the damage came down to the weight of the guitar itself with this hanger since it didn't effect any acoustics. It was a combination of the weight, insufficient padding and humid hot summers.
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